Navigating the Future: Embracing AI in Marketing Strategies
In this episode, Cat and I get real about what it actually looks like to build a brand in the age of AI. She opens up about the messy middle, trying to merge old-school marketing instincts with this new wave of automation, and what it takes to keep your message human when everyone else is starting to sound like ChatGPT on autopilot. We dive into the fine line between using AI to elevate your strategy versus letting it water down your voice. Kat’s take is powerful: efficiency is great, but soul is non-negotiable. This conversation is your reminder that the future of marketing isn’t man or machine, it’s mastery of both. Stay sharp, stay authentic, and use the tools without losing your truth.
Transcript
If your message is strong, but your presence doesn't match it, this is your wake up call.
Speaker A:Hi, I'm Stephanie Rose, founder of West Rose Media, and this is Icons, the podcast where we build brands that look expensive, lead movements and actually make you money.
Speaker A:If you're ready to stop blending in and start being seen as the leader that you really are, hit subscribe and let's make you unforgettable.
Speaker A:Now let's go to the show.
Speaker A:Hello and welcome back to Icons, a Westeros Media podcast.
Speaker A:I'm very excited we have a new guest who has never been on the show before today.
Speaker A:I'm very excited to have Kat with us.
Speaker B:Welcome.
Speaker A:And Kat, can you tell the audience a little bit about yourself so we can get to know you?
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:Thanks, Stephanie, and thank you for having me.
Speaker B:I'm really excited for this conversation.
Speaker B:All right, a little bit about me.
Speaker B:I am a mom of three teenage girls.
Speaker B:And anyone who has had or have graduated their teenage girls, you'll know that that's a, that's a lot.
Speaker B:I guess the way to describe myself is I am sort of a creator artist by nature, done music and art and studied psychology.
Speaker B:And when I had to figure out what I was going to do with my life, an advisor said, why don't you go into advertising and marketing, you can bring the two together.
Speaker B:And so I did.
Speaker B:And I've been doing that kind of stuff for the last 25 years for some of the major agencies in New York, Boston and I also did a little stint in corporate America.
Speaker B:I went in house to run all marketing strategy for Progressive Insurance, launched the Dr. Rick Turning into youo Parents campaign for them 10 years ago as my 17 year old remember reminded me, she said, mom, I was seven when that launched.
Speaker B:I said, okay, it's a good way to keep time.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, no kidding.
Speaker B:And I launched my own company four years ago called Kalogi.
Speaker B:And it really is about being at the intersection of brand and business, psychology and creative storytelling and getting the most from the tech that's out there so that folks can interact and engage with brands they want and get more value from those interactions.
Speaker B:So that's what I've been doing for the last four years.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:I'm very excited for this conversation because those are things I also love.
Speaker A:So this is gonna be a really good one.
Speaker A:So before we begin, begin all of our conversations, I always ask our wonderful guests, tell me about a time when you had to be an icon, when you had to stand up and do something that no one else was willing to do.
Speaker A:And you stood in your iconic power and everyone had to watch you build it from nothing or burn something down.
Speaker A:I wanna hear the juicy story.
Speaker A:Please tell us yours.
Speaker B:So I will say it's launching my company, so it's actually a really good story.
Speaker B:I have the great fortune of having some lovely friends, former colleagues, and during COVID and we all remember how hard that was.
Speaker B:I was finding myself, like many, in a what's it all about Elfie moment.
Speaker B:And part of my struggle was I had spent so many, so many years trying to help others be extraordinarily successful.
Speaker B:And it didn't always work out well for me.
Speaker B:It didn't always yield something where I got what I felt was my fair share.
Speaker B:And I was also in a position where I was the only breadwinner in my family at the time.
Speaker B:There were five of us.
Speaker B:Now there are four of us.
Speaker B:Sometimes you don't need the husband anymore.
Speaker B:And a friend of mine, Dina Cattanio, called me and said, what the heck are you doing?
Speaker B: And this was March of: Speaker B:So we were all slowly crawling out of our little hovels and our safe places that we had created for ourselves to get through we what looked like impending doom.
Speaker B:And he said, I'm coming to you.
Speaker B:We're going to have a conversation.
Speaker B:And it actually was an intervention.
Speaker B:She.
Speaker B:He actually called it Project Elsa.
Speaker B:And he came and he said.
Speaker B:He said to me, he said, you have been talking about starting your own company for 15 years.
Speaker B:For some reason, you keep on having excuses for not doing it.
Speaker B:And he said, you have to do it this time.
Speaker B:You have to try it for yourself and maybe it'll work and maybe it won't.
Speaker B:And then he gave me a really huge gift.
Speaker B:He said, and to make sure you do it this time, I'm going to help you.
Speaker B:I'm going to give you 50% of my time to make sure you launch this, and I will help you build this business so it can be something that you're proud of.
Speaker B: And In September of: Speaker B:And I was really, really fortunate to have an ability to start with an existing client and grew it from there and have essentially regrown it for the last four years, changing the business model, refining my focus so that I can compete.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker B:And I am really excited to Share this with my three teenage.
Speaker B:Well, they weren't teenagers at the time, but my three girls because I think it's really important to show up for that them so that they feel like they can do anything.
Speaker B:You know, it doesn't mean you're not going to fall down and make a mistake.
Speaker B:But the minute you get those business cards and you hand it out and you have a conversation and saying, I made this, and we're four years in, which is a huge accomplishment for any business.
Speaker B:You know, getting to five years is the mark of stability.
Speaker B:So we're clawing away at our fifth year.
Speaker B:But being able to be a female entrepreneur, raising all the money to sustain my film, my family and my children, that felt pretty iconic.
Speaker B:And it's been messy, it's been fun, it's been a roller coaster, but I wouldn't change it for the.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:I resonate so deeply because I also.
Speaker A:My business pays for me and my kids life too.
Speaker A:And it's scary and it's like intense.
Speaker A:And you're like, should I do this?
Speaker A:What if all of these terrible things happen?
Speaker A:But then the kids get to watch and they get to like, see it and they get to like, be part of it and it's.
Speaker A:It's so cool because now my kids, I'm like, hey, what do you like, what do you want to do when you grow up?
Speaker A:And they have told me the most wild things and I'm like, okay, all right.
Speaker A:Obviously we have no problem dreaming big in this house.
Speaker B:Good job, mama.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I take all the credit.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So I'm really, really curious about your business specifically because I also like, I do brand stuff and marketing is always the top conversation.
Speaker A:And there seems to be two camps.
Speaker A:There seems to be like the old school.
Speaker A:I went to University for Marketing 20 years ago and I know everything.
Speaker A:And then the new all you need is TikTok.
Speaker A:And they seem to butt heads.
Speaker A:And I am so curious to hear what you think of that.
Speaker B:I think that they're both right.
Speaker B:And because they are both right, how we think about marketing is completely wrong.
Speaker A:Okay, well, how is it wrong?
Speaker A:Tell me.
Speaker B:Yeah, so you know, I, I started out in, in an ad agency in New York in, during the dot com boom, which for old timer, you'll know is in the aughts.
Speaker B:And a lot of ad agencies were trying to figure out, well, how do we stay relevant in a world where there are going to be these things called websites?
Speaker B:And so I found myself at a company, it was called Merkley Newman Hardy at the time, now it's called Merkle and Partners.
Speaker B:And they were known for creating iconic brands like the Mercedes brand for example, and how it shows up in the US and they were very good at brand strategy.
Speaker B:How do you do big campaigns?
Speaker B:And they started to hire some folks that knew digital, that knew websites, that knew coding, that were talking about 3D animation.
Speaker B:When I was working on BMW motorcycles, for example, launching their first website and we were doing 3D animations of the vehicle so that people could experience it virtually.
Speaker B:And at the time people were saying like, no one's going to do that.
Speaker B:And now fast forward and we pretty much shop before we go and appear in any dealer's doorstep at all.
Speaker B:And what I found is that the language that the folks that knew digital, that knew how to make things was so different from the language of the branders and vice versa.
Speaker B:And in fact there was a great amount of disdain of one camp versus the other.
Speaker B:There was a very us them dynamic.
Speaker B:And I guess I was fortunate in that I was like psychology major and I was like, hey, can't we all get along?
Speaker B:I know, can't we be friends?
Speaker B:And so I would do that role, that bridge building role of well, actually really great digital experiences can make a brand story come to life in a more interactive way or actually digital.
Speaker B:I know you want to get the lizard brain going, but like dancing happy smiley faces isn't helping the brand and might be damaging it.
Speaker B:So let's find a way to work together.
Speaker B:And that literally has been my entire career.
Speaker B:I have gone and done and instituted many change management programs within organizations, whether they're agencies or frankly, it's one of the reasons I was hired at Progressive was to be able to kind of bridge that gap, whether it was bringing branding to a digital first shop or bringing some kind of digital to a branding first shop.
Speaker B:And in that experience, what I have found is that, you know, we're doing the same thing all over, over again, right?
Speaker B:So that I would put the tiktokers in the more digital first type of storytelling, very short form, looking for the immediate reach, the immediate engagement.
Speaker B:And I would put sort of those that are saying, I went to, you know, business school, I got my degree in marketing, were taught a different model and when they were taught it, the immersion that we have in digital spaces and the way we live our lives attached to a phone, basically getting anxious if we leave home without one.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I know, I see that for myself and my kids.
Speaker B:Oh my gosh, you can't, you know, Their lizard brain gets the dopamine hit from scrolling on TikTok and figuring out how to get the likes and creating content.
Speaker B:I mean, they were doing the content when it was still musically, when one could argue as a good parent, I kind of didn't think my job was to not expose them.
Speaker B:I thought my job was to help them guide themselves through the exposure.
Speaker B:Because I didn't think this Pandora's box was going to kind of get packed back up and put away on a shelf.
Speaker B:And so we're seeing that again.
Speaker B:And what I marvel at is that the textbooks have not adjusted, not fully to the new realities that we have.
Speaker B:And if you look at executive leaders, my clients tend to be very senior.
Speaker B:Obviously they are also part of teams.
Speaker B:They have teams that are more junior.
Speaker B:But when you think about a leader who grew up in one camp or another, they got senior because they knew how to do that thing really well.
Speaker B:And now they have a really big responsibility and we're telling them, well, you're not quite doing it right.
Speaker B:Like that's kind of a non starter.
Speaker B:And so this notion of bridge building has only become more important in conversations.
Speaker B:And I will tell you, and I'm sure you talk about this with a lot of folks, but with the adoption of AI, it's going to become even more critical.
Speaker B:Because if you think about where AI is being used a lot right now for marketing, yes, we have it in targeting, it's been in programmatic platforms for a while.
Speaker B:It's embedded in things like the Google engines.
Speaker B:But the content creation is where this forced meshing is happening between an idea of storytelling and an idea of technology creating.
Speaker B:And so being able to bring teams together that can help each other to create something that's better because of everybod in the room, I think it's going to be a mark of a successful brand and a successful company and I think we need to do more of it.
Speaker A:Wow, that, that is so interesting and I'm loving hearing all about this.
Speaker A:So when you say that you're like bridging this technology and the storytelling so specifically with AI, how are you?
Speaker A:Are you bridging that gap?
Speaker A:And how.
Speaker A:Because so many people come to me, they're like, I want to tell my story.
Speaker A:And I'm like, awesome.
Speaker A:And they're like, and I told ChatGPT to write me a book about it.
Speaker A:And I was like, oh my God.
Speaker A:Oh my God.
Speaker B:No, that's not how this works.
Speaker B:I mean, there is a component of using it, but it's not to do it.
Speaker B:For you?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I think that there's like, there's quite a bit of like confusion, especially with business owners who are trying to market themselves online and they're like, do I use AI, Do I not?
Speaker A:And there's like, there's pretty solid camps on either side of like, yes, I use it for everything and I don't even use my own brain anymore.
Speaker A:And also people who are like, no, it's unethical, it's bad, like we should never even consider it.
Speaker A:And I'm just curious, like what kind of, how do your, does your company use it and in what ways?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Well, I will completely confess to being an avid user of AI and I will also confess to the fact that I have horrible adhd.
Speaker B:So these things are related because the way that we are using AI is strategy first, AI to get there faster.
Speaker B:And the reason I'm saying that is if you have an example of a clung to you and saying I just asked ChatGPT or Copilot or Gemini to write my book, what is going to come back from that?
Speaker B:Is the vanilla, very accessible, not insight driven ideas and content.
Speaker B:Why is that?
Speaker B:It's because all of those agents have been trained on the Internet and so what they are bringing to us is a remix of what already exists.
Speaker B:But that's not how a company is able to grow.
Speaker B:A company that grows does so because it understands how it is unique, how it is different from the competitors and provides something that's of greater value and then builds forward.
Speaker B:It also has things called purpose and mission and culture.
Speaker B:And anything that is created on behalf of that brand has an obligation to represent that moving forward.
Speaker B:Which means you have to make something for them that isn't already out there.
Speaker B:And so I've actually been playing around with creating my own little series of agents to help do the process that I do faster.
Speaker B:But it's absolutely hands on, it's guided and it's not doing it for us.
Speaker B:So I'll give you an example.
Speaker B:You know, back in the day we used to have amazing primary research departments at the ad agencies because I grew up in brand planning, which was responsible for understanding what the audience needs and understanding how that brand needs to adapt in order to connect with that audience.
Speaker B:And so it was audience insights and then brand positioning and messaging.
Speaker B:That was my friend bought butter and I still bring that forward today.
Speaker B:But I had amazing research teams that would give me dossiers on audience insights or competitive context or what the media spend might be.
Speaker B:Well, a lot of that is available now through The Internet.
Speaker B:And so I don't have time to do the three month exploratory discovery, making sure that we have all the right incense, insight, insights, information gathering.
Speaker B:My clients need to have something in market usually within six months of engaging me.
Speaker B:And I need to do that too because they have to show an roi.
Speaker B:So my research team is, is my AI platform.
Speaker B:But I don't just say, tell me what it is.
Speaker B:You have to put the guidepost in.
Speaker B:You have to say what you were looking for.
Speaker B:You have to be able to say do it again, but do it in this way.
Speaker B:And I think that's just one example of how AI becomes a very powerful tool and helps me get to my destination faster.
Speaker B:But I know where I'm going.
Speaker B:I'm not asking AI to tell me where I'm going.
Speaker B:And so making sure that you have that, that point on the horizon that you are sort of making sure all the oars are rowing toward together, that's going to be the most critical thing I think in this nation notion world that we have of AI aid and adoption.
Speaker B:And I think that not knowing where you're going and asking AI to do it for you is going to create a lot of noise that is going to annoy people over time.
Speaker A:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker A:I heard somebody else say that AI feels like the future, but it is the past because it's only pulling from the past.
Speaker A:And I was like that, that helps me like clock it in my head of like, what can we actually use it for?
Speaker A:I love that you talked about using it for collecting data because that's something that I've been using it for.
Speaker A:But I'm curious how when you said you tell it what to do and then you tell it to change what you're doing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So can you give us an example of that?
Speaker A:I'm super curious about that part.
Speaker B:So I, I would actually say if anyone's trying to like, how do I, how do I do AI better than others?
Speaker B:Asking a question multiple times is I think really critical.
Speaker B:Which by the way, was something that I was trained to do when I was in the focus group rooms and facilitating conversations or having one on one interviews with folks.
Speaker B:When you ask a question two or three times, what ends up happening is there's a collective understanding.
Speaker B:Now remember, AIs are trained on the way people think.
Speaker B:And so the way an AI will go gather and create a response is optimized basically by can I answer this question in one ask?
Speaker B:And so it kind of brings the answer to the average and the norm and as I said, that's not how you get ahead.
Speaker B:So what I found in the focus groups is when I asked the question two or three times, people dug deeper, they thought about it more, and they went past what, you know, that first level thinking into secondary and tertiary level thinking.
Speaker B:The best ideas are up in the tertiary level.
Speaker B:They really are.
Speaker B:And you have to kind of slog through the first two in order to get there.
Speaker B:It's true too, of AI.
Speaker B:And so you have to ask for it to do it again, but you can't just say, do it again without something, right?
Speaker B:And so it is this interaction between the response that it gives you and then making sure you have your brain on, like, not.
Speaker B:Not checking it in the passenger seat or the back seat or the way, way back for us 80 kids, 80s kids, but making sure that you're thinking about, okay, what's the next question?
Speaker B:Or if, If I were to ask it again, what extra element or dimension do I want AI to incorporate when it brings back the answer?
Speaker B:And when you do that, what you get is far more interesting and is going to give you a platform to then take your ideas to the next.
Speaker A:Oh, that's so interesting.
Speaker A:I love that because I keep trying to, like, I just have so many conversations with people about AI and about marketing and about all of these things.
Speaker A:And the entire, like, point of my brand is like, authenticity is like, use who you actually are to do it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then people are like, yeah, love that.
Speaker A:I want to be authentic.
Speaker A:And then I read their captions and I'm like, I. I know.
Speaker A:This is like, it is word for word AI.
Speaker A:It's like, just because of this doesn't mean this EM dash.
Speaker A:Here's the solution.
Speaker B:Every time the EM dashes, the bolding, the emojis, like, like, it's like, like, dude, your AI is showing.
Speaker B:I'm like, now I understand why I see all that crap on LinkedIn posts.
Speaker B:I'm like, who wants to have to slog through all of these emojis?
Speaker B:And somebody decided, Instant, instant, scroll 100%.
Speaker B:I'm like, I don't want to talk about this.
Speaker B:You're not talking to me, so why would I give you my time?
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Sales pages, too.
Speaker A:I'm like, seeing full websites and sales pages with this wording.
Speaker A:And I'm like, I don't want to read one second of this.
Speaker A:And people are like, why is my content falling flat?
Speaker A:I'm like, because you completely removed yourself from it.
Speaker A:So what I usually talk to people about is like, if you feel Stuck on making content.
Speaker A:First of all, never be stuck on making content because every interaction you have with the customer is content indeed.
Speaker A:So, like, look at those conversations.
Speaker A:Even if you get like two DMs, you're like, ask ChatGPT.
Speaker A:Be like, I got these two DMs.
Speaker A:What is some content ideas I could have from that?
Speaker A:And then take the idea and make something new.
Speaker B:Because you're starting with something that is true and a real world moment.
Speaker B:And what you're asking a to do is help me identify more moments that are like this.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant.
Speaker A:What is something that happened in real life that we can go from?
Speaker A:Yeah, because I just keep coming back to this, like, the clients and stuff in your research.
Speaker A:Because people come to me and they're like, okay, I know who my ideal client is and I know what I want to work on.
Speaker A:And I'm like, great, that's so great.
Speaker A:Tell me about it.
Speaker A:And they like, they made up this ideal client in their head that is they don't exist.
Speaker A:They don't exist.
Speaker A:They don't exist.
Speaker B:And I'm like, no, I know, I know, I know.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker A:But, like, if.
Speaker B:One we can't find them, they.
Speaker A:Yeah, so, like, actual real life people.
Speaker A:I'm like, pick an actual person you want to work with and talk to them.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:How.
Speaker A:How would you.
Speaker A:If somebody's like, I'm lost on this stage, like, who is somebody I want to talk to?
Speaker A:So how do you get people even, like, started on this?
Speaker A:Obviously you probably do all this research for them in your agency, but a lot of the people listening are kind of like, bootstrapping this on their own.
Speaker A:So what would you suggest?
Speaker A:If they're like, they've made up this crazy ideal client and they need to, like, get back in reality.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And the reality is, is that some of my clients don't have money for market research either.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker B:You know?
Speaker B:Cause I typically, my whole thing is I want to do good work with good people.
Speaker B:And if I see I can choose who I work with, I can invest time with whomever I want.
Speaker B:And typically, if I see a good person, I'm like, I know you can't pay me, but number one, I kind of believe in what you're doing, maybe I can help get you a little bit closer to your goal.
Speaker B:And two, well, if you get to that goal, then maybe you'll have the money to hire me.
Speaker B:And so it's, you know, my partner and I have been talking a lot about this notion of freely giving things that are of value.
Speaker B:And that when you do that, it's a moment that sparks joy for the other.
Speaker B:And I think about the world that I'm in and this notion of being able to spark joy is actually related to like happiness, well being.
Speaker B:And so I try to do that a couple times a day.
Speaker B:And so there are times that my clients don't have budgets for any audience research.
Speaker B:But the reality is, is that all of these research companies and all of the consulting companies, they are publishing extremely rich primary research about the kinds of audiences that are out there.
Speaker B:And you can ask your AI bot to go find it, summarize it, and bring you snapshots of real people.
Speaker B:And that can be a fantastic starting place.
Speaker B:And again it goes to how do I ask for it?
Speaker B:Again, I go back to the fact that I was a brand planner and my job was to create audiences and Personas.
Speaker B:The problem of having an ideal customer that doesn't exist in the world has been there for forever because that happens in segmentation, right?
Speaker B:So when you have massive data set and you're asking math to group them in into groups where the group itself is more like the other people in the group and more different than the groups that are adjacent to it, math makes up that decision.
Speaker B:That doesn't mean real world has them.
Speaker B:And so way back then we were saying, okay, for every segment that we've just identified mathematically, name one or two friends or community members or colleagues that you think fit that description.
Speaker B:And if you can't do it, it's not real, it's not real.
Speaker B:And so the same thing will hold true now.
Speaker B:And when you have the right groups, we know enough people to say, I think that person belongs to it.
Speaker B:Or, you know, that's Molly.
Speaker B:Molly loves dogs and she doesn't have any kids and she does have more disposable income.
Speaker B:And so if I'm trying to go after her and say, you know, I've done a lot of insurance, so let's get your auto insurance.
Speaker B:I know if I talk about dogs, she's going to pay attention, right?
Speaker B:And she's got the money to put some of the extra stuff in that policy, so let's ask her for the extra stuff and make it one thing so she doesn't have to think about, do I make this myself or do I just buy off the shelf?
Speaker B:So you still have to do that notion of do I know somebody?
Speaker B:And if you can't, it's not going to, it's not going to work for you.
Speaker A:Yeah, I love hearing this from you.
Speaker A:Because I'm like, I knew it.
Speaker B:I knew it.
Speaker A:Someone smarter than me knew is confirming that I knew it.
Speaker B:I think I'm just older than you.
Speaker B:I have more years.
Speaker B:That's all it is.
Speaker A:It just makes me, like, really, really happy.
Speaker A:So when you are working with clients and they're coming to you and they're like, okay, help me, help me, where do you have them start?
Speaker A:Like, if somebody comes to you and they're like, I want to triple my business, but I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker A:Where do you start them?
Speaker B:So I love it when clients come to me with that.
Speaker B:And I honestly think it goes back to the, like, I was an artist creator first, because when I take a look at, you know, like in this room, there's musical instruments and the notion of what can we make without any plan at all, or, like a blank canvas, There are some people that are just like, let's get going.
Speaker B:But a majority of other people look at it and they freeze, right?
Speaker B:They're like, what, What.
Speaker B:What's the first stroke that I do?
Speaker B:Or what's the first.
Speaker B:First chord progression?
Speaker B:And the beauty about being where I am in my life is I've seen a lot, right?
Speaker B:And so my experience can help make decisions fast because there are things that will work and won't in a general territory.
Speaker B:And so my first conversation is really about the business, because the way I see brands and.
Speaker B:And the sort of anthem that I've been shouting from the rooftops and the movement I'm trying to kind of bring marketers toward is this idea that brand is actually a business asset that should be managed like any other operational asset within an organization.
Speaker B:And because of that, if it's a brand new brand, you have to know where you're going to start so that you have a chance.
Speaker B:If it's an existing brand, you have to know where you need to go next so you don't leave the folks that already know you behind.
Speaker B:And yet you're able to advance your strategy so that you can take advantage of whatever the next opportunity is.
Speaker B:And so typically, I start with, okay, what are you trying to do?
Speaker B:What work have you already done?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Have you done the competitive?
Speaker B:Where do you see your differentiation?
Speaker B:Have you gone and done any kind of market research?
Speaker B:Where do you think your audiences are and what's true about you and why you started this, or your culture and your purpose?
Speaker B:And I think if you have those three things to begin with, it's the beginning of telling that new story and creating the new go to market strategy for you.
Speaker B:I also have the benefit of, you know, understanding some of the economics behind marketing spend.
Speaker B:And so I'm able to kind of size the opportunity and say, all right, well if you're trying to go after this audience, in all likelihood your cost per acquisition is going to be up.
Speaker B:So I can then take a look at where there are logic gaps.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And oftentimes there's a logic gap in two places.
Speaker B:One is their pricing strategy and the other one is in the time they're willing to spend to get there.
Speaker B:Because this stuff takes time.
Speaker B:And I think that our mentality with the proliferation of Google AdWords and you know, looks like instant brand success and places like Facebook and TikTok marketplace, there's a sense that a lot of executives have that if I put money into those bottom of the funnel tactics, then I will be able to have a ROI within one year.
Speaker B:And the likelihood of having an ROI in one year against a brand new initiative is low because it takes time to build up what you need to be successful.
Speaker B:And it takes time to test and learn so that in 12 to 18 months you get down to an allowable.
Speaker B:But how much you spend is going to determine how long it takes to get there.
Speaker B:If you're doing a low budget, then I only have a lot, a low amount of impressions, which means anything I'm doing has to wait until I get to enough impressions so we can start to model and do optimizations.
Speaker B:And a lot of folks want to start small, which I understand, but then they have to understand that that's going to take them longer to get to that point where they're feeling really good about what the ROI is for the investment, for the spend in market or the tactics that they have.
Speaker B:And the same thing is true for salespeople, right?
Speaker B:You can't optimize through a sales channel, B2B channel if you don't have enough conversations with prospects.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It takes a time.
Speaker B:And for some reason companies are willing to invest in a person that's doing the proverbial knocking on the door and having a conversation and iterating from there.
Speaker B:But when it comes to other kinds of marketing programs, they don't have any patience and they're fast to say it's not working.
Speaker B:Well, it's not not working.
Speaker B:We know this works, it's just in what way and how?
Speaker B:Let's make sure that we're digging in and finding the places that we can kind of tweak those knobs in order to jointly get to a Place where we feel good about what we're doing.
Speaker A:This is Green is like, oh, my God.
Speaker A:I. I love that you're talking about, like, the creation and, like, where do we start and all of this.
Speaker A: that the whole, like, boom in: Speaker A:And then they got this thing in their head, like, that's gonna work.
Speaker A:And I was like, oh, my God, no.
Speaker A:And then, like, managing expectations from people because, like, building a brand takes time, especially if the brand is a personal brand.
Speaker A:And, like, you're the face of it.
Speaker A:The hours and the reps you gotta put in is wild.
Speaker A:People are like, well, I just want to do one video.
Speaker B:I'm like, okay, no, that's not.
Speaker B:That's not how you do it.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Would you build a building with one brick?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And so I'm old, right?
Speaker A:This building of this brand.
Speaker A:And what I love to tell people is it doesn't have to stay the same because people are like, I'm not gonna be the same.
Speaker A:I'm like, it doesn't matter.
Speaker A:You're starting from somewhere and you're growing.
Speaker A:Like, when I started my brand, I started as a family photographer.
Speaker A:I had hair down to my bum.
Speaker A:I was married to a man.
Speaker A:I was living on a little farm.
Speaker A:I had three little babies, and I was like, this full on, like, what they're calling trad wife now.
Speaker A:Like, that was the look before.
Speaker B:It was a thing before.
Speaker A:It was a thing before.
Speaker A:It was literally things because you didn't have money.
Speaker A:That was, like, where it started, right?
Speaker A:That's where I started, like, eight years ago.
Speaker A:And my entire brand, it's like, sometimes I feel cringy about it, and I want to go back and delete my post, but I'm like, no, because part of your journey.
Speaker A:They watched the progression.
Speaker A:They've watched me.
Speaker A:I got divorced.
Speaker A:I came out.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:My kids grew up, I met my person, like, the whole thing.
Speaker A:And I went from, like, family photos to now.
Speaker A:I, like, people travel from around the world to work with me for their brand, and people are like, well, how do you build a personal brand?
Speaker A:I'm like, like that one brick at a time, over and over again.
Speaker A:And it doesn't have to be stagnant and it doesn't have to stay the same.
Speaker A:You're allowed to change and evolve, but you have to continue putting in the reps of showing up, because you can go Back and look and like people sometimes do, because I always challenge them whenever they're like, this should go faster.
Speaker A:I'm like, okay, go back and find my earliest post you can find.
Speaker A:And then they're like.
Speaker A:I'm like, yeah.
Speaker B:Well, I mean, I can.
Speaker B:I can relate to that by the way.
Speaker B:You sound like you could have written the book Untamed.
Speaker A:Yes, I read that book and I.
Speaker B:Was like, you're like, get out of my life.
Speaker A:Why didn't you write this about me?
Speaker B:I mean, it was.
Speaker B:Yeah, you just give it to your client and you, like, you put a tag over with your name.
Speaker B:Might as well have been.
Speaker B:Yes, well, I celebrate all of that.
Speaker B:You know, I think that we need to remember that we're always a work environment.
Speaker A:Progress.
Speaker B:And it doesn't change when we're thinking about managing ourselves as brands or our companies as.
Speaker B:As a brand.
Speaker B:Because the reality is the world we're operating in is changing.
Speaker B:The purpose that we have changes and shifts.
Speaker B:And so I think being flexible and being courageous enough are going to be mandatories for those that will get ahead and accomplish the goals that they're seeking.
Speaker B:And I think, actually, and this is now coming out from our conversation, that willingness to get it wrong or to have these tiny fails or bloopers, I think that's going to be the mark of humanity in this world that is overrun with AI generated content.
Speaker B:And I think, ironically, the thing that feels the scariest, which is I don't know if I'm going to get it right the first time, is going to be exactly what we need to get to where we're going.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, thank you that just came.
Speaker B:I appreciate it.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:100%.
Speaker A:And I've been yelling this from the rooftop.
Speaker A:Some people are like, no, no.
Speaker A:People are like, your job is.
Speaker A:Is going to be redundant.
Speaker A:I'm like, no, it's not.
Speaker A:Because you pay way more for the Italian sports car that's handmade than the one that's made in the shop, the factory that every single person can buy.
Speaker A:Like, there are cars you have to apply to purchase.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's the kind of things that I make, like, actual, real photos of real people who are like, I actually get the feelings in them out.
Speaker A:The thing that everybody says is like, oh, my God, I've never seen myself like that.
Speaker A:After we do photo and video shoots, I'm like, see, that's my magic spice is.
Speaker A:It's the you.
Speaker A:Is you possible.
Speaker A:And then other people get to see it, too.
Speaker A:And then that gets to be your brand instead of some AI generated bullshit.
Speaker A:And I'm like, okay, well, I'm going.
Speaker B:To keep on applauding you on that one for.
Speaker B:With two things, one that I think you'll like and probably the listeners too, which is people do know when something is AI generated.
Speaker B:And there are two things I'm going to point you to.
Speaker B:And I've used this reference.
Speaker B:I need to go back and remember which company and which CEO it was.
Speaker B:But tech, Tech CEO decided to test out AI, wanted to see if he could use it for executive communication.
Speaker B:They ended up doing my favorite AB test and had him sort of feeding an AI bot that would respond to certain things, make announcements, you know, pertinent to culture or things internal to the organization.
Speaker B:And then within the same communication stream, I believe.
Speaker B:But within the same time period he wrote his own.
Speaker B:And two really interesting things happened.
Speaker B:Number one, people usually guessed which one was from him and which was from the AI.
Speaker B:Now, mind you, they did train the bot to be in his voice.
Speaker B:But there's this, I think they call it the uncanny valley when you realize that it's a machine and not a person that's talking with you.
Speaker B:And we instinctively know.
Speaker B:And so you have to be really careful about that in the visual world.
Speaker B:You're seeing a huge backlash on AI generated headshots right now.
Speaker B:And I think that that's only going to continue because it kind of stands in that face of, well, I'm on a place like LinkedIn or I'm on my corporate website to show people who I am, so they want to choose to do work with me.
Speaker B:And the version of me I'm presenting.
Speaker A:Bot made, like, what does that say.
Speaker B:About how you're going to engage in work and create a relationship?
Speaker B:Because at the end of the day, you know, we're doing relationships with people.
Speaker B:Either it's for a personal or professional.
Speaker B:And it doesn't feel good when you come across somebody that's fake and phony and they're just projecting a false version of themselves.
Speaker B:We kind of know and we don't like it.
Speaker B:So you have to be really careful about putting too much faith in AI for that reason.
Speaker B:So as you are telling the story of oh my God, I love the way I look, your photographic eye.
Speaker B:And I love this about talented photographers like yourself, where you're in the room, you see it, you could have your iPhone out.
Speaker B:But what you capture in the same room versus something that you capture.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:What I capture versus what you capture is so wildly different.
Speaker B:And that's the creative perspective Right.
Speaker B:And I'm sure when you're working with people, you're getting to know them, you're uncomfortable, so you can draw out what's more true about them.
Speaker B:That's what we want.
Speaker B:If we didn't want that, reality television, which is fake.
Speaker B:I understand, but it wouldn't be a category.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It wouldn't be a thing.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I think people are.
Speaker A:They're craving Community so much, and that's, like, the biggest roadblock to Community is that fake shit.
Speaker A:Like, if someone's like, join my wonderful community and they, like, list out the great things, I'm like, oh, that's cool.
Speaker A:And then their picture is a fake version of themselves.
Speaker A:I'm like, no, I don't want it.
Speaker A:I don't want to be part of that.
Speaker A:Because I like when somebody comes to me and we're going to work together.
Speaker A:They're like, okay.
Speaker A:Like, the thing they mostly worry about is, like, what outfit will I wear?
Speaker A:And will I look skinny enough?
Speaker A:And I'm like, I give zero fucks about that.
Speaker A:You can show up in your oldest blue jeans and your tattiest T shirt, and I will make you look better than anything else.
Speaker A:What I want to know is, like, what is your gigantic goal?
Speaker A:Who do you want to impress?
Speaker A:Like, who is this actually for?
Speaker A:And it's okay if it's revenge.
Speaker A:Like, fucking, let's go.
Speaker A:Like, I want to know, like, what's the real reason we're doing, like, this?
Speaker A:Is this because you want to show up and you want to see your ex?
Speaker A:To see you absolutely crushing it?
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:That's amazing motivation.
Speaker A:Let's go.
Speaker B:Let's do it right.
Speaker A:I'm like, I want to know that I don't want the fake stuff.
Speaker A:That's the kind of stuff I use to plan the shoot, not what are they going to wear.
Speaker A:And people are always confused.
Speaker A:They're like, well, isn't it the most important what I wear?
Speaker A:I'm like, no, it's not.
Speaker A:It's the very bottom of the list, I promise you.
Speaker A:Because I want to know why.
Speaker A:Why are we doing this?
Speaker A:What's the point?
Speaker A:Where's your brand going?
Speaker A:And then we do the shoot, and then they're like, oh, my gosh, the new ideas, the pictures you took, match perfectly.
Speaker A:I'm like, it's almost like I planned it well.
Speaker B:And I think the notion of having a plan, I mean, that maybe sounds like it runs counter to this idea of being flexible, being able to make mistakes, but it doesn't.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So your vision and plan for how somebody tells their story and how they show up within their own story is the equivalent to my analogy of you got to row this boat.
Speaker B:All the oarsmen have to know where you're going and somebody has to be steering the ship towards that point on the horizon.
Speaker B:Now it might mean that an iceberg comes and we got to go around it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But that's okay because you still know where you're going.
Speaker B:You may just shift how you're getting there.
Speaker B:So having that plan is really, really important.
Speaker B:Which goes back to how we started this conversation, which is you can't just ask AI to do it because AI will not know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And AI can't see your future or what you want or what you care about.
Speaker A:It has to be told these things.
Speaker A:I love this.
Speaker A:Okay, so how can people find you, work with you?
Speaker A:Tell me.
Speaker A:I will put all your links in the show notes.
Speaker A:But like, how do you want to connect with people?
Speaker B:Well, it's funny because I'm just now starting to try and build my personal brand.
Speaker B:I've been around for four years.
Speaker B:I didn't launch my website until two years in.
Speaker B:I mean, mostly because the work that I do, it's about people that you know and the networks that you have.
Speaker B:And I've been very fortunate to have some great people that have said, hey, can you help me with.
Speaker B:But we gotta, we gotta grow up here.
Speaker B:And so I've just launched sort of a thought leadership platform.
Speaker B:There's a lot more where that's coming from, but the best place to find it is on Substack.
Speaker B:So you can find my handle at Catholt C A T H O L T at the Substack platform.
Speaker B:The platform is called Brand is Business.
Speaker B:And I have lots of conversations and they're going to be a lot more where that comes from around how we need to start thinking about this to adapt to the world that we just talked about.
Speaker B:You can find me on LinkedIn and then you can also find me at my website, which is kologi.
Speaker A:Com.
Speaker B:C o o l o g e e.com and it doesn't look good yet, but it will.
Speaker B:You know, cobbler's cool.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:I'm just.
Speaker B:We'll.
Speaker B:We'll get there.
Speaker B:We'll get there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker A:I love this conversation.
Speaker A:I feel like my head is gonna like explode because I like, this is the kind of stuff I want to talk about.
Speaker A:I'm like, I don't want to.
Speaker A:I want to.
Speaker A:I don't want to do even one more conversation about the stuff that doesn't matter.
Speaker A:Like let's actually talk about the stuff like this, like the AI and how you're going to use it.
Speaker A:And then thank you for being so honest and so open and like sharing your wealth of knowledge.
Speaker A:This is my favorite kind of conversation and I'm so glad we got to do this.
Speaker A:And I hope that you'll come on the podcast again because I have more questions.
Speaker B:I would love to do that.
Speaker B:I think it's the start of a beautiful friendship.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker A:So to everybody listening, please check out the show notes.
Speaker A:I'm going to have all of those links.
Speaker A:I'm excited to jump in that substack and check it out.
Speaker A:And please share this episode with a friend, especially if that friend has an AI headshot or you see the lightning bolt emoji.
Speaker A:Grab your spot on there for captions.
Speaker A:If you see that, send this as a gentle reminder to them.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for being on the show and please share it with a friend.
Speaker A:I am excited and we will see you again next week on the Icons podcast.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker A:If this episode hit home, take a second to follow the show and share it with someone who's ready to lead louder.
Speaker A:And if you are done playing small, come find me on Instagram estrosmedia because your vision deserves to stay alive without you having to chase it.
Speaker A:See you next time.
